Global anti-Semitism demands a united response

AIPAC...American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

The accusations of AIPAC's real influence are exaggerated-- to say the least. I've even heard some Viners here call Obama a "Zionist poodle"-- a really absurd accusation. But the fact of the matter is, the people who have the real influence in Washington's inner circles are actually one of Israel's bitterest enemies.

I love how anti-Semitism now simply means anti-Jewish

What, exactly, do you "love" about it?

Its just another dictionery definition-- what do you find so loveable about it?

Dictionary: an·ti-Sem·i·tism (ăn'tē-sĕm'ĭ-tĭz'əm, ăn'tī-)

1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews.

Except Semitic peoples includes Arabs and some Bedouins as well. To me the word seems to exclude Arabs from discussion.

"

I love how anti-Semitism now simply means anti-Jewish

What, exactly, do you "love" about it?"

I should have put /sarcasm behind that, but I figured the context would work just as well. Apparently not.

Anti-Semitism is a stupid word that projects Jews as the only Semitic people in the world, downplaying their genetic relations to Arabs.

According the the Anti-defamation League antisemitism has gone down for 4 straight years now. So I don't know about why this is happening elsewhere. I don't see it very much at all where I live--actually not at all.

The number of anti-Semitic incidents in the United States declined for the fourth consecutive year, according to statistics issued by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) on Monday.

Anti-Semitism is a stupid word that projects Jews as the only Semitic people in the world, downplaying their genetic relations to Arabs.

I agree its a stupid word-- mainly because its meaning is ambiguous.

And, to be precise-- "Semitic" is not an ethnic group-- but rather a "language family"-- just as "Romance languages" Germanic Languages," etc are language families. Semitic languages include Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic and a few other obscure (maionly no longer extant I beleive?) languages.

So its erally not a good word to use.

However, the accepted defintiion of a word is that which is found in the dictionary-- and as such, anti-Semtism does not refer to Arabs. (if you want to argue with the commonly accepted usage found in the dictionery, than you are on shaky ground-- of course many people argue with the dictionery defintion when they have one political agenda or another).

Personally, I not only think "anti-Semitism" is a poor word to use (if only because its meaning is unclear)-- but so is the word "Arab". Who is an Arab-- an inhabitant of Arabia and their descendants? Are Egyptians Arabs? Are Maroccans? Sudanese? Must one be a Muslim to be an Arab? Its confusing.

Of cours, one could argue that an "Arab" is an inhabitatn of the "Middle-East"-- or one of their descendents. LOL-- the defintion of what constitures the "Middle East" is also open to debate...its very fuzzy

IN any event, its really a matter of semantics, and I myself am anti-semantic!

I don't see it very much at all where I live--actually not at all.

Well-- perhaps consider the fact that there are many Jews in areas of the world outside of where you live? I don't mean to belittle your own personal experiences, but perhaps consider the possibility that things may be occuring which you haven't personally observed? (I have in the past often thought I knew a lot about some situation-- worldwide-- and then suddenly came across an article that showed me that my assumptions were incorrect).

Well-- perhaps consider the fact that there are many Jews in areas of the world outside of where you live?

no, I was relying on the ADL data and comparing it to my own experience.

But I am curious as to why people think this is happening in these other parts of the world?

Dislike of Israel has permitted dislike of Jews to become tolerated politics again. Of course to criticize Israel is not anti-Semitic

do you buy this from the article as the reason?

Well-- perhaps consider the fact that there are many Jews in areas of the world outside of where you live?

no, I was relying on the ADL data and comparing it to my own experience.

Oh-- OK. I misunderstood you.

But I am curious as to why people think this is happening in these other parts of the world?

Depends upon the person. But I have been reading articles off and on about the situation in Britain-- it seems they are on the rise there. And elsewhere. The Jewish community in Yemen has apparently just left the country out of fear...(they've been in Yemen for quite a while...). And attacks on Jews elsewhere seem to be on the rise. I havne't chanced across all that m,any articles about anti-Semitism in the U.S., so the impression I get it that its's probably fairly constant.

The Anti defamation league was reporting a significant drop here. I was saying that to me that seems right. There is more anti-Israel (I don't think most Americans really even know what ZIonism is) sentiment, but I don't see it translating to antisemitism here.

Why do you think it is happening in Europe--Yemen is another case. I think I can figure that one out. The whole Jewish population of Yemen was about 400 and they have been having a hge influx of Somali refugees too. I think things are kind of all over the place there now. But Europe? why do you think it is?

Many Europeans were right there for WWII and are still alive. The Germans have been very open about the Holocaust--so deniers look stupid and people make fun of them. I don't get it.

The Anti defamation league was reporting a significant drop here. I was saying that to me that seems right. There is more anti-Israel (I don't think most Americans really even know what ZIonism is) sentiment, but I don't see it translating to antisemitism here.

According to polls I've read, support for Israel in th eU.S. is rising.

However, I haven't seen much about it, but I get the impression that anti-Semitism in the u.S. has not been rising-- it may, in fact, be decreasing. In fact-- while its still a significant problem, I think that tolerance of minorities in general-- including blacks, gays, etc-- is increasing in the U.S.

Why do you think it is happening in Europe--Yemen is another case. I think I can figure that one out. The whole Jewish population of Yemen was about 400 and they have been having a hge influx of Somali refugees too. I think things are kind of all over the place there now. But Europe? why do you think it is?

In Europe? Three reasons:

1-Increasing Muslim immigration. This is in no way meant to claim that all Muslims are anti-Semitic, of course they're not. But generally speaking, a higher proportion of immigrants from places like Pakistan and the Arab countries carry with them attitudes they've gotten from the media in their own countries. How could they not? And the media in much of the Arab world occasionally has virulent anti-Semitic content (I could post links that would shock many people here-- stuff that's direct copies of 1930's and 1940's German propaganda and present in current day Arab media....but I'd rather not at this point..)

2. The Goldstone Report and related condemnations of Israeli policies-- whether accurate or not. Sure, that's critical of Israel, not all Jews. But many people don't feel there's a difference. Some of the criticism of Israel (much of which is inaccurate and highly inflammatory) leads some people to hate all Jews...Many people have the tendency to make generalizations about a group based upon the actions of a small number of individuals (you can see thsat here on the vine..I think that making generalizations-- whether valid or not-- is part of human nature

3. The anti-Semites use of the buzz word "Zionism". They've finally found a way to promote anti-Semisitm and pretend they're not actually bigots. Speaking as a long time Zionist myself, I can tell you that all it means is the support for the Jews having their own homeland -- period. "Zionism" sounds sinister-- but in reality most people have bought into the Arab propaganda....(probably the majority of people who have an incorrect idea of the meaning of the word aren't anti-Semitic in the least-- but the Arab propaganda efforts have lead to many who are sincere...being mis-informed).

Maybe so, Because I don't think Americans for the most part have a clue as to what ZIonism is, Major coastal cities, maybe people in big university towns in the midwest, Florida, but over all not so much.

Lets not be too coy here. We know we disagree on most of this, but I am trying to understand that pov from your eyes and from Europe where you say antisemitism is on the rise. I don't understand it. The US is really the patron, so why do the Europeans care? I think you are incorrect on support for Israel because I think support for all other countries, especially ones we send aid to and ones we feel are ripping us off is down across the board. I think support for anyone outside of Americans is down. We are broke and war weary. Now Afghanistan is looking more and more like Viet-Nam and life in the US more like a bad version of the 1970s-if not the 30s. People are not feeling generous or expansive.

But we are not a homogeneous country except for American culture and we tend to accept anyone who accepts American culture and reject those who don't. It doesn't matter so much what their origin is here. (as long as its legal) Like Canadians ( a little bit less) we like to cut down the tallest poppy.

Americans are antiMuslim but only when they feel they are changing things--this is not a new phenom here. Most don't like foreign Arabs or Muslims because they have bought anti Islamic propaganda. But the last ones in and the most visible always have it rough here. Immigrants have to blend in to be accepted here.

You are right. The more they hear about Zionism, the less they like Israel. Cast Lead and the assault on Lebanon were a real eye opener to people here. But it is like South Africa, and I know people don't like the comparison but you have to see it how the average American sees it. The average American is proud of America. Proud of the diversity and the idea of liberty and justice for all. Americans really like the idea of separation of Church and state too--when they see, Zionism juxtaposed to Gaza, and occupied territories and then see the dispropotionate death tolls and signs that say Jewish only roads, and find out that Jews cannot marry non Jews in Israel ? It rankles. But still I think most people in the US do not connect that with American Jews. Just with Israelis.

So why in Europe is that different?

Cast Lead and the assault on Lebanon were a real eye opener to people here.

Lebanon used to be quite balanced mixed, and in good tidings, it really didn't get screwed over so badly till around 1968 with the second wave of Palestinians , then by 1970 Lebanon was pretty f-ed. The PLO never helped matters and in fact kept screwing up the area to where they were even expelled by Jordan in1970.

Americans really like the idea of separation of Church and state too--when they see, Zionism juxtaposed to Gaza, and occupied territories and then see the dispropotionate death tolls and signs that say Jewish only roads,

You know the WTF causing expression is you sit there saying stuff like right above and this as well

Because I don't think Americans for the most part have a clue as to what ZIonism is,

You don't either. You rant on and on and on like you even know what it is and call it the big bad Zionists, etc, and find every single negative you can to back up your reason when all Zionism is the establishment of the homeland of Jewish people.

You have Labor Zionism, Liberal Zionism, Nationalist Zionism, Religious Zionism, Neo-Zionism, and Post-Zionism and then you have the Ultra Orthodox Jews that even view Zionism as secular. It was pretty much Arabs and Muslims that started making it out that Zionism was a bad thing, when all Zionism was was the establishment of a Homeland for Jews, Their homeland as in Israel as in the Holy Land which is historically their land. It was stolen from them.

You also have Post Zionists that want a multinational Israel but guess what Arabs and Muslims say it is ALL ours or nothing at all. THEY refuse to accept ANY Israel and pretty much hardly any Jews.

Have you really not studied up about any of this at all?????

"Except Semitic peoples includes Arabs and some Bedouins as well. To me the word seems to exclude Arabs from discussion. "

that's purposeful, ,because anti-Arab hatred is acceptable to many. Just read many of the articles that preach hate against Arabs on Newsvine.

I would probably say the same about yours. People who are in the midst of something are not always the most objective or the clearest on their own situation.

Well-- having lived in Israel gives me a different perspective on the country than one whose never been there. Of course now I am "in the midst of ..the US!"

I have been a Zionist for years-- I've lived in Israel in various settings and have meet many Zionists. (That means people on the extreme left through the right-- some even were actual Communists-- and who lived in a Communist environment). I 've spent hours discussing politics with them. I've lived as a volunteer in two kibbutzim-- and in Tel Aviv and other cities. Now I'm not claiming to be the world's greatest expert on Zionism-- but I can say with total certainly that what your portrayl our beliefs to be is false...

Here's what it appears is the source of your confusion:

Yes-- there are nut cases who believe in Zionism ( the Jews' right to their hiomeland-- and nothing more-- anything ekse is soemthig=ng else added to the actuakl concept) but the nuttiness is not a part an inherent part of Zionism. You might also meet an occasional American liberal or conservative who's a total a$$hole with weird ideas-- but it would be inaccurate to assume that means those ideas (the nutty ideas) are part of liberalism or conservatism...

Actually, IMO the cause of your confusion is due to a tendency on your part to make generalizations. My saying this is not motivated by any intention to get into an argument with you, but rather my observations. Before you defend yourself (a normal human reaction) I would urge you-- for your own advantage-- to serious consider the possibility that I might be right in that (i.e. that you may indeed have a tendency to generalize...in a way that may at times hinder your accurate perception of reality).

If you don't want to do that, its fine with me...

otherwise why is Israel not in uganda? Should all small groups have their own homelands given to them from someone else's land? What about the Kurds for example. I think there are more Kurds than Jews.

also if you are a Zionist and Jewish why don't you live in Israel? Are you a dual citizen?

Ya know what millerb, have you ever been to Israel? have you ever been to the Middle East? have you ever traveled over there? Have you ever spoken to Zionists?

You ar sitting there arguing with krishna who obviously have a hell of a lot more introspect and knowledge about it all having lived there and actually been submerged into everything, so it is beyond comical that you would argue so IF you answer no to my questions above.

No, I have never been to Israel--so Kshark--to you that means I should sit down and shut the F up?

My nephews had never been to Iraq either--or Afghanistan. Maybe they should sit down and shut the F up too? Most Americans had never been to Europe at the outbreak of WWII --should they have sat down and shut the F up too. How stupid is that?

also if you are a Zionist and Jewish why don't you live in Israel? Are you a dual citizen?

You still don't get it.

It seems that you really believe that only Jews could support Israel. What's next-- allegations that any supporter of Israel must be a paid agent of some nefarious secret worldwide conspiracy... that desires nothing less than world domination?

Are you really that dense-- or are you faking it? If you are I will detrack and not waste time with you (i'm sure that wouldn't bother you in the least)-- but its hard to believe you are not faking it. (Unless you're really just full of hatred-- a bigot who hates jews-- which I really doubt. Hopefully.... My guess is that you're not but rather have been so inundated with propaganda you actually sincerely believe the things you write...)

Zionism means support for the Jews' right to their homeland. Period. Nothing about expansionism. Nothing about the need to massacre Palestinian babies. None of that bull@!$%#. I have experience of what a truly unique country it is-- and that's why I so strongly support it.

So-- that's it. I support Israel's right to exist-- and having been there saw the truth about this very special country. (And, btw, the contributions they have made in many countries worldwide. )

I am a Zionist. I am not a Jewish, nor am I a Zionist based on some sort of "Christian Zionism". My views are based upon actual experience of the country-- over time.Its a truly amazing place in a positive way...

I have only American citizenship and see no need to have any other. (I was born and raised here. I am not some sort of extremist right-wing super-patriot but having lived in Paris, Tangiers for a short period and London and several other places I have come to appreciate what a wonderful country the US is-- despite our human flaws). I prefer living in the US to living in any other place in the world-- unlike many people, the reason I live here is because of a conscious a choice I have made. The degree to which you are misinformed (and love to generalize and stereotype) is amazing...

millerb-1023348--

Given the comments you are making, you are trying to argue against someone that has first hand knowledge, when you don't. I KNOW I have had to argue with Australians and other people about my country the US when they have never been there and they look like blatant fools in the long run.

Why not just come out with it and say you hate Israel and you hate Jews and be done with it.

Ya know what, you don't even want to learn. You are happy with the inaccurate information you support.

Bravo, way to go.

the truth about this very special country.

Here's a 'thought question" for you. It sounds like a corny joke or sonething, but its not:

How do you get from Darfur to Israel?

How do you get from Darfur to Israel?

answer: you write something critical of Israel about the Palestinians? suddenly you are in Darfur.

Wow what a choice. I am a stupid moron, a brainwashed jerk or a hate filled antisemite? Way to go yourself--yes please put me on ignore. I had you on ignore for about a month until tonight. SO back on. I don't need all these attacks from you and the K-Sharkette, thanks--so much for actually talking. Really nevermind. Your hatred is what is dense.

Are you really that dense-- or are you faking it? If you are I will detrack and not waste time with you (i'm sure that wouldn't bother you in the least)-- but its hard to believe you are not faking it. (Unless you're really just full of hatred-- a bigot who hates jews-- which I really doubt. Hopefully.... My guess is that you're not but rather have been so inundated with propaganda you actually sincerely believe the things you write...)

also if you are a Zionist and Jewish why don't you live in Israel? Are you a dual citizen? I was asking. I said if--because you said you lived there in two Kibbutz. I am fully aware that there are tons of pro Zionists who are not Jewish. The hope of Zionism was that all Jews would return to the homeland--so I wondered if if if if if you were Jewish why you didn't live there?? Boy excuse me that was really antisemitc of me to ask that

You assume a lot. Where did I say this? This vitriol is all yours-own it at least.

Nothing about expansionism. Nothing about the need to massacre Palestinian babies. None of that bull@!$%#. .

otherwise why is Israel not in uganda? Should all small groups have their own homelands given to them from someone else's land? What about the Kurds for example. I think there are more Kurds than Jews.

But you did say this,miller.

IDF:
So? wasn't part of Uganda one of the first locations offered? If I am wrong tell me. Show me that I am wrong. I don't think so. I think parts of Uganda were the first offered. And what about the Kurds? Certainly there are more of them and no one can deny that they have been persecuted and driven this way and that . All they want is self-determination , yet they are spread out over numerous nations/ Where am I wrong here?

I was responding to the denial of the religious part that was put off. I can't quote it as I have put Krishna back on ignore, but you are free to go find it yourself.

otherwise why is Israel not in uganda?

Why aren't the Egyptians living in Thailand?

Or the Turks in Botswana?

DUH!

What about the Kurds for example. I think there are more Kurds than Jews.

Because of the Turkish illegal, immoral, and fattening apartheid, genocidal, occupation of the Kurdish homeland-- in violation of "International Law" (whatever the f*ck that is :-)

/sarcasm

Can you say "Treaty of Sevres"-- but then again, the Turks were never particularly observant of human rights norms..but we're getting off topic...

In all seriosuness, I tdo agree with you on that--I think that turkey should end their occupation, and give the Kurds their land back. And, in theory, the U.S. should end its occupation of Native American lands-- but there a re some practical obstacles to that...

I was responding to the denial of the religious part that was put off. I can't quote it as I have put Krishna back on ignore, but you are free to go find it yourself.

You have a strange way of having a conversation-- asking me a lot of questions then putting me on ignore!

(Maybe you really didn't want to hear my answers to the questiosn you asked after all...?)

P.S: ..re your comment:

I can't quote it as I have put Krishna back on ignore,

That's nonsense-- of course you can see it.

And you know it.

Even when someone's on ignore you can click any of their comments and take a look at it..without even taking the person off ignore. But you knew that...and so do we! :)

I was responding to the denial of the religious part that was put off. I can't quote it as I have put Krishna back on ignore, but you are free to go find it yourself.

You have a strange way of having a conversation-- asking me a lot of questions then putting me on ignore!

(Maybe you really didn't want to hear my answers to the questiosn you asked after all...?)

P.S: ..re your comment:

I can't quote it as I have put Krishna back on ignore,

That's nonsense-- of course you can see it.

And you know it.

Even when someone's on ignore you can click any of their comments and take a look at it..without even taking the person off ignore. But you knew that...and so do we! :)

Do you really think your attempts at deception will work on the Internet? Maybe in your inner circle offline-- but on the 'net you never know who will see through that sort of thing...

Sheesh-- I don't think jdoyle would actually have the nerve to create an actual sockpuppet,,,but you whole style is so exactly like his...even that self-righteous wounded "its not fair" thing you do...is like you're a clone!

millerb-1023348--

Well those are your words saying I am calling you a brainwashed jerk. You are calling yourself a moron.

MY POINT which you are consistently missing, which krishna has even taken the time to explain to you is YOU have a one sided POV about all of this. You are not doing any research, you are not reading enough material looking up enough things to even grasp what is happening. You have one view point that is it. Krishna has sat there providing detailed explanations for you and you are still saying no that isn't right. What does that tell you? Someone that actually lived there, they experienced it, you are STILL SAYING THEY ARE WRONG and blocking off anything they are saying. That is a problem.

Your hatred is what is dense.

My hatred or krishna's? No one hates you, it is just the mere fact you refuse to listen to actually open up your mind and connect the dots to what is being said to you. What is really important for discussions is seeing things from all sides and not just one side.

-----------------------------------------------------

At least you didn't suggest Madagascar.

Nah the Lemurs have a pretty strong hold there, wouldn't want to f- with them. *winks*

I stand by the Uganda comment. I came by it honestly and it was not meant in any way to be flippant. In my reading about the history of Zionism I had seen it more than once. Here are two references to it: (not from my textbook

s

.When Britain offered the Jews the opportunity to colonize Uganda, Herzl wanted to accept, but he met with fierce opposition.

http://www.rabbiwein.com/Zionism-Uganda-and-Palestine--History-Series--Part-3-P247.html

the British then offered Herzl the possibility of an autonomous Jewish settlement in East Africa (commonly known as the Uganda project). Herzl called on the Congress to give serious consideration to the plan.

Despite considerable opposition and a demonstrative walk-out by the Russian Zionists, the delegates agreed by 295 in favor, 178 against and 98 abstentions that a committee should be dispatched to examine the possibility of Jewish settlement in East Africa.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/firstcong.html

So despite comments I received I was posting in good faith and in fact i was correct. My point was in response to being called either dense or a faker for trying to talk about the history of Israel and how difficult it is to tease out the secular from the non-secular. So here is some reading for Kshark and krishna.

So I guess Kshark I am not the uninformed , unlistening one after all.

So despite comments I received I was posting in good faith and in fact i was correct. My point was in response to being called either dense or a faker for trying to talk about the history of Israel and how difficult it is to tease out the secular from the non-secular. So here is some reading for Kshark and krishna.

Well-- Ok. I was a bit hasty in my comments in general-- so I suppose I owe you an apology.

Hertzl was in favor of it for a long time and fought hard for it. It was only when other people objected --and not by that huge a majority AT ALL--that he relented. This to me muddies that waters between the religious vs secular nature of Israel from the beginning. I think this is well acknowledged by most historians including prominent Jewish Scholars.

There were many suggestions.

Here's a page listing many proposals for a Jewish state. Including the suggestion to relocate Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany to the territory of Alaska-- more on that from a 1999 article in the Anchorage Daily news.

A Jewish autonomous region/state, called Birobidzhan, was established by Stalin in 1938 based on Yiddishkeit culture. It still exists.

Israel derives its power and legitimacy as the United States--- the consent of the people to be governed-- not because a state or land was 'given' to them.

Here's a page listing many proposals for a Jewish state. Including the suggestion to relocate Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany to the territory of Alaska-- more on that from a 1999 article in the Anchorage Daily news.

Kind of a slap in the face to me. If some accepted that ok, but Alaska isn't their home, it isn't where they are from.

Ah well.

I don't know where you are from Kshark but in America we are proud of our diversity and don't see it as a slap

.Kind of a slap in the face to me.

here we have a saying "Bloom where you are planted"--we are all Americans here now.

millerb-1023348--

Why are you this dense? Answer me that. You quote me, taking it out of context and then attack me with it.

YOU DON'T GET IT

Ksahrk:
Stop attacking me and either answer or not--but stop attacking me now. i am getting very tired of your name calling, it is counter productive and nasty. Thank you in advance. I asked a simple question. Why is that a slap in the face that some jews chose to live in Alaska? Where do you live? And why where you live would that be considered a slap? What about these questions don't you get? Ask me for clarification,but don't attack me again please.

millerb-1023348--

Why are you this dense? Answer me that. You quote me, taking it out of context and then attack me with it.

YOU DON'T GET IT

I don't see that anything I said deserved your condescending nasty response. I was only saying all were welcome and I hope they bloomed where they planted like Americans have for generations.

Why are you this dense? Answer me that. You quote me, taking it out of context and then attack me with it.

YOU DON'T GET IT

See my comment #9.6

He pretends to be interested in honest communication- but here's the deal-- its all an act. It the jdoyle model of "interaction"-- he doesn't listen-- because his only interest is in pushing his point of view-- he has no interest to hearing other opinions.

I lost my temper while you stuck with it longer-- but eventually its obvious-- his model of "communication" is not a two way street...actually, Kshark, its you and I who also don't get it-- we don't get that he has absolutely no interest in really hearing what we have to say-- for all practical purposes he's a doyle clone...probably not an actual sockpuppet...but its the exact same mode of communication-- or more accurately-- noncommunication.

(I have had, on occasion, some really good interactions with some strong supporters of the Palestinians where both sides actually listened to what the other side had to say-- tried to understand their POV-- and reacted to it-- but they listened. They were genuinely interested in understanding opposing viewpoints. However that's not possible with the millerb/jdoule model..their idea is to feign interest...but they aren't interested in understanding other viewpoints..or learning anything new)

Here's a page listing many proposals for a Jewish state. Including the suggestion to relocate Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany to the territory of Alaska-- more on that from a 1999 article in the Anchorage Daily news.

Kind of a slap in the face to me. If some accepted that ok, but Alaska isn't their home, it isn't where they are from.

Ah well.

To put things in perspective-- I wonder how millerb would feel about a suggestion that we give the Palestinians a state-- in Alaska?

(I'm not suggesting that seriously-- the idea is as ludicrous as moving the Jews there-- but I think it's a good comparison)

Here's a page listing many proposals for a Jewish state. Including the suggestion to relocate Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany to the territory of Alaska-- more on that from a 1999 article in the Anchorage Daily news.

Kind of a slap in the face to me. If some accepted that ok, but Alaska isn't their home, it isn't where they are from.

Ah well.

To put things in perspective-- I wonder how millerb would feel about a suggestion that we give the Palestinians a state-- in Alaska?

(I'm not suggesting that seriously-- the idea is as ludicrous as moving the Jews there-- but I think it's a good comparison)

There were many proposals for a Jewish state.

My point is that Uganda failed in 1903 as a fleeting suggestion, there were many fleeting suggestions. Israel is more than an idea, it exists.

[Uganda] to me muddies that waters between the religious vs secular nature of Israel from the beginning. I think this is well acknowledged by most historians including prominent Jewish Scholars.

That doesn't make sense. And besides, actually, so what? ALL countries waters are 'muddied' with the secular and religious, why the double standard for a Jewish state?

Maybe it would be interesting to name some of these prominent scholars.

Obviously Jewish people who were on the committee overwhelmingly proposed to check out other places, with Uganda being seriously considered and ultimately being rejected not on religious grounds but on the grounds of it being dangerous with Lions listed first off,

So the point isn't Uganda , per se. Uganda is an example . Obviously other Jewish people involved with Zionism supported these alternatives as some actually chose to go and live in other places as you noted in your post.

The meaning derived from this is that there was a difference in the minds of the leadership about whether it was even necessary for the homeland to be in Palestine (which is what they are calling it)

Many Scholars were critical of the way things were going and said so (Arendt, Brand etc) including
Hertzl. I am sure you are also aware that religious Jewish scholars were against the whole thing and that there were Zionist groups on the left that wanted a coalition between Arabs and Jews and there were Marxists as well unhappy with the way things were working out.

None of this is the point of what I was responding to.

My one and only point was that the religious part was not nearly as involved as it became much later. The original intent was not. So when people use the arguments that are religious it becomes very different from Hertzl's original Zionism.

Forget Uganda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzlcETJ869w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohnnh5HXKdI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohnnh5HXKdI

While Jerusalem in ancient, Tel Aviv is a verynew city. After looking at that video-- check out this picture of "downtown Tel Aviv"-- taken when it was founded in 1909.

Obviously Jewish people who were on the committee overwhelmingly proposed to check out other places, with Uganda being seriously considered and ultimately being rejected not on religious grounds but on the grounds of it being dangerous with Lions listed first off,

Well, since the Jews have already spent a lot of time and effort building up their country in Israel-- why not give the Palestinians Uganda?

Uganda being seriously considered and ultimately being rejected not on religious grounds but on the grounds of it being dangerous with Lions listed first off,

And if lions are such a problem, I'm sure the U.S. could give the money (heck-- we are already giving them quite a bit of money as it is)-- and U.S. technical expertise-- to build fences around the communities to keep the lions out (we could draw on the experience of ranchers in the South-West).

This would solve other problems as well-- the mid-east is relatively arid-- but there's plenty of water in Ugana. My guess os that the Palestinians would be quite happy there!

Herzl's Zionism was about avoiding anti-semitism and religious persecution by leaving.

Zion is also the universal ideal of man's yearning for Utopia, the city on a hill. It is not possible to separate religious arguments from Zionism.

One can see this in the history of America, the promised land, the land of opportunity -- it's not an accident that the original settlers who celebrated the first Thanksgiving in 1619, were called Pilgrims, who came to America to flee religious persecution.

From a speech by John Winthrop, given to the Puritans who founded Massachusetts Bay Colony, on the ship as it sailed toward landing in 1630:

We shall find that the God of Israel is among us, when ten of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies; when He shall make us a praise and glory that men shall say of succeeding plantations, "may the Lord make it like that of New England." For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. So that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story and a by-word through the world.

from page 6, With Eyes Toward Zion: Scholars Colloquium on America-Holy Land Studies

Zion as a place name reflected the organic relationship between the United States and the Land of Israel. At least fifteen locations are called Zion in almost as many states (Arkansas, Illinois, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Jersey, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Utah and Virginia). Uniquely, Zion City in Illinois was laid out with all its streets bearing biblical names. It was John A. Dowie who, at the end of the 19th century, established Zion City, intending it to be governed as a theocracy. For almost four decades the church controlled most of the town's industrial and commercial enterprises.

There are no fewer than twenty-seven towns, cities and counties called Salem....

For reference see:

His tent is in Salem, his dwelling place in Zion. Psalm 76:2

IDFEB89:
I don't get why you wanted me to watch them--in regard to Uganda. Hertzl and the WZO committee were the ones who checked out Uganda and ruled it out as too dangerous not me. I wasn't involved in that decision.

Zion is also the universal ideal of man's yearning for Utopia, the city on a hill. It is not possible to separate religious arguments from Zionism.

One can see this in the history of America, the promised land, the land of opportunity -- it's not an accident that the original settlers who celebrated the first Thanksgiving in 1619, were called Pilgrims, who came to America to flee religious persecution

I wonder if someone will now suggest Americans be given a country in Uganda instead...? (I kinda like it here actuallly-- I hope they don't try to force me to re-settle in Uganda.)

since I am ignoring Krishna and Krishna is running this seed, I am out .

I don't get why you wanted me to watch them

A glimpse of Israel,that's all.

since I am ignoring Krishna and Krishna is running this seed, I am out .

There you go again! :)

Hint: To find out who the moderator of any discussion is, try this:

1. Scroll up to the top of the page. There are several ways to do this:

-Use your mouse and the scroll bar on the right (if you don't know how to do that just ask-- I'm sure someone here would be more than happy to explain it to you

-Click somewhere on the page, then use one of the arrow keys to move to the top of the page (my suggestion would be-- use the "up arrow" to move up).

-Or-- try the "Home" key.

Well, I 'm not a techie, so some of that may be inaccurate...perhaps someone with more computer knowledge than I can explain it better? It does require some technical skills-- but I'm sure that with practice I'm sure you won't find it all that difficult.

And-- I haven't used a Mac in a while so I have forgotten-- it there may be a different procedure necessary for jumping to the top of the page-- I don't know...?

2. Now-- this part is a bit easier:

After you have reached the top of the page-- look around. Near the top left corner of the page is the name of the person whose column this is (on NV this person is often referred to as the "moderator" of the column)-- as well as their avatar.(In this case, if you are able to understand and sucessfully execute these instruction, you will see who the moderator of this column is.

Surprise-- its not me!

Heh :-)

If this is still unclear--well, I'm sure there are some people here who would be more than happy to explain some of the more complicated details of this (how to get to top of a page on the Internet) to you.(of course if you don't listen to them-- you would miss an opportunity to learn something new.. :-(

And, if you do choose to learn how to do this (how to get up to the top of a page)-- its a skill I think you will continue to find useful in the future.

Hope this helps! :-)

P.S. Where can I get some of that stuff that you are smoking?

The Abuyudaya, "People of Judah." are a Jewish community in Uganda.

They do not appear to be genetically or historically related to other Jews, but they are apparently devout and are recognized by the Reform and Conservative sects. There is a village which is seeking Orthodox conversion.

The history seems to have begun in 1913 when a Muganda military leader, Semei Kakungulu converted from Christianity and became a Malachite Christian, which he believed:

combined Christianity, Judaism, and Christian Science. However, upon further study of the Bible, Kakungulu came to believe that the customs and laws described in the first 5 books of Moses (Torah) were really true. When told by Muslim immigrants to Mbale from other parts of Africa of mixed Jewish ancestry that only Jews observe such customs, he exclaimed, "Then we will be Jewish!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abayudaya

millerb-1023348--

Ksahrk:
Stop attacking me and either answer or not--but stop attacking me now. i am getting very tired of your name calling, it is counter productive and nasty. Thank you in advance. I asked a simple question. Why is that a slap in the face that some jews chose to live in Alaska? Where do you live? And why where you live would that be considered a slap? What about these questions don't you get? Ask me for clarification,but don't attack me again please.

millerb-1023348--

Why are you this dense? Answer me that. You quote me, taking it out of context and then attack me with it.

YOU DON'T GET IT

I don't see that anything I said deserved your condescending nasty response. I was only saying all were welcome and I hope they bloomed where they planted like Americans have for generations.

Calling you dense is not name calling. If I wanted to call you names I could, but I am being tactful enough. For you to NOT get what I said to take my comment completely out of context by only quoting ONE piece it makes you dense because you completely missed the whole point of what I said.

READ WHAT I SAID AGAIN. I cannot believe you are this dense, but you are surely showing it. WHERE did I ever say they could NOT chose to live in Alaska. IN FACT I said IF SOME ACCEPTED THAT then OK. If you ever bother talking to me again or responding to anything I ever say READ WHAT THE HELL I WROTE FIRST, FFS.

This is NOT about me so it is pointless to answer your questions about me.

You just do NOT get it and still do NOT GET IT. *needing Panadol now for this*

READ WHAT I SAID AGAIN. I cannot believe you are this dense,

Well-- beleive it.
He is!
(or else its just an act...)

krishna-167929--

And yup I have finally learned ALL about jdoyle now. Way too funny, but yup had my official run in with that liar, accuser, slanderer. Oh so much fun.

Anyway,

And yup I have finally learned ALL about jdoyle now. Way too funny, but yup had my official run in with that liar, accuser, slanderer. Oh so much fun.

Well-- its definitely a learning experience!

No point in debating the idea of Jews in Nazi Germany 'choosing' not to die and going to Alaska, it was never offered. As the Anchorage article said, there were no countries willing to be a 'dumping ground' for Jewish 'misfits.' Including the US. "Let others settle the Jewish problem,"

well, we know how that worked out. An entire people murdered almost to extinction by half the world, with the other half standing by watching.

There is an engaging alternate history fiction book by Michael Chabon called the Yiddish Policeman's Union, based on the premise that the Jews were offered refuge in Sitka, Alaska. I listened to the audio version of the book and can't recommend it highly enough.

see Krishna--is this what you were talking about.

You might also meet an occasional American liberal or conservative who's a total a$$hole with weird ideas

It obviously makes me unqualified to speak on the subject since I haven't been there.

Let's overlook the sarcasm and the whiny tone and get to the essence of that statement--well, a key aspect of it anyway.

The notion that "people who haven't been there" aren't qualified to speak about it (or, since we're dealing with sarcasm-- the opposite). Not what sort of a statement is that-- one about "people who haven't been there"?

Yup-- its a generslisation.

So, the first thing I noticed about your statement is that you jumped to a generalization. I suspect that that's often an automatic reaction with you-- to look for generalizations. A 'knee-jerk' reaction.

The problem with generalizations is that they often prevent you from seeing the actual truth..the actual facts. Sound familiar? (Actually your way of perceiving things reminds me a lot of jdoyle-- are you by any chance closely related? You both have the same style of thinking to a large degree. I'm not sayin' its good or bad, jsut that its..similar..)

What's the opposite of being on automatic--automatically looking for a generalization? Well, onme alternative is to look for facts-- to go byond surface appearances. Generalizations are a nice refuge-- they're warn and fuzzy-- but they can be used to avoid taking a deeper look at the facts...

Actually, what I was saying about my epxerience is that I have a fair amount of experience of Israel. Now, people who've never been there may or may not be in touch with the realities...

Then if I have never been there and should shut the f up or agree with Krishna, and that is my choice, why is Krishna here ? A Zionist, who could live in Israel and be a citizen here?

Asked and answered (comment 9.6).

You are not a good listener!

Would you really want to live in a tiny country surrounced by more than a few radical nutcases that want to annihilate its inhabitants?

About the only thing in the area I could think of that would be worse than living in Israel nextdoor to Hamas would be to actually live in Gaza itself! No thank you-- I'll take my chances living in the U.S.

Krishna :
I only opened this looking for the quote for IDFeb89. I was not the one making the generalization. I was being ranted at with this:

millerb-1023348--

Given the comments you are making, you are trying to argue against someone that has first hand knowledge, when you don't. I KNOW I have had to argue with Australians and other people about my country the US when they have never been there and they look like blatant fools in the long run.

Why not just come out with it and say you hate Israel and you hate Jews and be done with it.

I have said zero about my hating anybody. But look what I get. And there were two or three posts saying I had no leg to stand on since I hadn't been there. So your attack plan about me being an evil generalizer won't hold water.

As for jdoyle? I wish I sounded like him. Thank you. You made my night . Now really baback on ignore so if anybody quotes my remarks to you I won't respond. I know when argument is going to end with me being an ignorant sheeple, fool , baby killing in Dafur, Jew hating bastard and I don't need that abuse from a K-sharkette or a K. SO have a pleasant life.

Krishna :
I only opened this looking for the quote for IDFeb89. I was not the one making the generalization. I was being ranted at with this:

millerb-1023348--

Given the comments you are making, you are trying to argue against someone that has first hand knowledge, when you don't. I KNOW I have had to argue with Australians and other people about my country the US when they have never been there and they look like blatant fools in the long run.

Why not just come out with it and say you hate Israel and you hate Jews and be done with it.

I have said zero about my hating anybody. But look what I get. And there were two or three posts saying I had no leg to stand on since I hadn't been there. So your attack plan about me being an evil generalizer won't hold water.

As for jdoyle? I wish I sounded like him. Thank you. You made my night . Now really baback on ignore so if anybody quotes my remarks to you I won't respond. I know when argument is going to end with me being an ignorant sheeple, fool , baby killing in Dafur, Jew hating bastard and I don't need that abuse from a K-sharkette or a K. SO have a pleasant life.

Why are you addressing that to me..? I did not say you "why not say you hate Jews"-- in fact, if you read my comment (despite the fact you decided to put me on ignore-- so you alledgedly don't know what I said, lol?) you will see that I said I doubt that you were a bigot, but rather that i doubted you were!

Which goes to show the hazard of asking someone a lot of questions then putting them on ignore-- than quoting what you think they said without looking at it since they'rw on ignore!
In addition to being prone to generalizations, you appear to make it a habit of making assumption-- or is it merely that you reply to me but are acting quoting what someone else said-- thinking it was me?

And talk about assumption-- I never said that you were killing babaies in Darfur. re-read what I said-- an exact quote:

Here's a 'thought question" for you. It sounds like a corny joke or sonething, but its not:

How do you get from Darfur to Israel?

Now-- unless you really believe I think you are in Darfur (I don't-- my guess is that you are in the US, but I could be wrong) than that doesn't mean you are in Darfur! And I didn't say anything about killing babies there.. Well, maybe its my fault fo rbeing unclear-- I should have said: How does one get...

As for jdoyle? I wish I sounded like him.

Be careful what you wish for...

Wishing that you sounded like jdoyle? Now that a real ROFL...I mean really...

millerb-1023348--

I have said zero about my hating anybody. But look what I get. And there were two or three posts saying I had no leg to stand on since I hadn't been there. So your attack plan about me being an evil generalizer won't hold water.

As for jdoyle? I wish I sounded like him. Thank you. You made my night . Now really baback on ignore so if anybody quotes my remarks to you I won't respond. I know when argument is going to end with me being an ignorant sheeple, fool , baby killing in Dafur, Jew hating bastard and I don't need that abuse from a K-sharkette or a K. SO have a pleasant life.

Mate, I have on idea what you like or dislike truth be told. I am going by what you are writing in your posts and how much are you ranting about Israel and Zionism, and for one second NOT even listening, reading or actually wanting to pay any speck of attention to what krishna is telling you. That IS a problem. Someone that can actually give you first hand knowledge about all of this and you piss it away, ignore it and refuse to listen. THAT sets up the idea for me that you do more or less sound like you hate because you do not want to listen.

Compared to someone who HAS been there it is difficult for you to have a leg to stand on in the discussion. If seems like all information you have is from biased websites or whatever, maybe just one site or just listening to the repeated negative rhetoric being spouted out from something. I don't understand why you refuse to want to learn. I don't. I have on idea where you collect your information from, but you are only looking at it all from one side.

I am sorry if you felt I was abusing you, that was not the point. The point in all of this was just for you to learn as all you were really doing is spouting off the same hatred espoused by Muslims and Arabs against Israel and Jews.

Anyway whatever you put me on ignore now. *shrug*

-----------------------------------------------------

krishna-167929--

Nah millerb simply put us together in the same responding post to not have to split it up. My guess.

Kshark:

that is right--you have no idea as to what I think , so please stop telling me that I should come out and admit it that I hate Jews

You are the one ranting-i have only responded from the start--Which I can now see was a total set up , right from the start to the part where I am really jdoyle's sockpuppet? No I have been on here in good faith and I think some people on the other side like Alkimija are too. I have seen her on other seeds and she seems like a person really looking for true discussion and real answers. You said to me with no provocation:

Why not just come out with it and say you hate Israel and you hate Jews and be done with it.
Ya know what, you don't even want to learn. You are happy with the inaccurate information you support.

Where do you get off saying that. You have zero idea as to what I know, and I have not been ranting here and I am not uninformed and I am fairly certain that I know a hell of a lot more than you do about the situation. I have studied plenty and don't have to explain myself to you or be schooled by Krishna either--and I don't see where it is your place to suggest that, You know zip about me except that I have never been to Israel. So what. I have never been to Iran, Japan, Sub-Saharan Africa, or North Korea either. That doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about. That is a moronic assumption.

There are Americans who don't know that New Hampshire is a state. So just being somewhere doesn't mean all that much. There are plenty of Americans who can't point out Yellowstone or even the grand canyon on a map. There are Americans who don't know who their state assemblyman is and don't care. There are the majority of Americans who never even vote--not even in a Presidential election , and who have no idea where Afghanistan or Iraq are and who don't have a clue as to what we are doing in either place--so, so much for knowing about a place just by being there.

I had Krishna on ignore because it always ends up like this on the threads Krishna is on if I try to have an honest discussion. I don't need that aggravation. I am a sincere person looking for ideas to understand the ideas of others. I am not here to be evangelized . I don't need to be told what I am saying, who I should be a student of or what I know or don't know. I tried to respond to what was tossed out until I saw it was a set up. I feel badly for Alkimija and IDFeb89 that this thread got hijacked. I am not interested in a brawl or getting into a snarky thing that goes nowhere. You want to learn from Krishna? You go right ahead. I will put you on ignore too, and you can party on.

Speaking of Darfur and global anti-semitism. Guess who Sudan blames? And guess who Gadhafi blames?

And guess who is behind the sinister plot to try to save Darfur? Just take a guess.

nevermind

I could moderate at least half of it, if not more, as easily off-topic. But sometimes it's better to allow the glaringly stupid to stand as a monument to that idiocy.

Actually I was thinking more in terms of your just having to read through most of the nonsense...not necessarily delete any of it or issue warnings.

interestingly, most of it isn't really nasty stuff-- there's not even much in the way of really nasty personal attacks-- just a lot of stupidity (things that really don't even violate the COH). Its not a violation of the COH to publicly make a fool of oneself!

This comment was priceless:

As for jdoyle? I wish I sounded like him.

A "Great moment in the annals of Newsvine"

Can anyone suggest a good online news source to keep up with news from Israel and the Middle East? I have seen some good ones but failed to bookmark the sites =-(. I think the comments with millerb highlight the need for good information to help stop the spread of anti-Semitism.

Can anyone suggest a good online news source to keep up with news from Israel and the Middle East?

I could probably suggest about 40 or so really good sources :)

Actually, the easiest to keep track of all news is probably The Jerusalem Post (for clarity, click "Print this Article" if you want to seed something from their site). While much of what is the there is the same as on many major newspapers (i.e. world news-- much of it the same AP stories you'll find elsewhere) in addition there is, not surprisingly, a lot of coverage of anything related specifically to Israel.

A second source that I would recommend most highly is quite different-- Israel21c. This is not a general news site but rather has articles about the numerous positive things the Israelis are doing, innovative approaches to problem solving. They describe themselves as:

ISRAEL21c is a non-profit educational foundation with a mission to focus media and public attention on the 21st century Israel that exists beyond the conflict.

ISRAEL21c focuses on how Israel and Israelis are having an impact on individual lives through their efforts in health, technology, culture, democracy and clean tech.

Israel21c is also a good source for articles to seed to the NV Group "Amazing Israel" :

The purpose of this group is to highlight the amazing accomplishments of this tiny country, and the numerous contributions Israel is making to the world. (If you have articles about the current conflict in the Middle East, please clip them to the appropriate group...but not here).

Thanks! Jeez, I had Jerusalem on the brain but couldn't go further with the thought! I didn't know about that group, so I'll add it to my watchlist. Thanks again for the info.

Thanks! Jeez, I had Jerusalem on the brain but couldn't go further with the thought! I didn't know about that group, so I'll add it to my watchlist. Thanks again for the info.

You're welcome!

There are, of course, many other sources-- many are very specialized. (rather than further divert the discussion here, email me for a longer list or if you are interested in those covering some specific aspect...I may possibly know of some that meet your specific needs :). And I would imagien other Viners cacan make some suggestions as well.

The "Amazing Israel" group is unusual, in that the actual purpose is, in part, to reduce conflict and angry confrontation in NV discussions about Israel/Palestine-- by focusing on the positives. (Typical of that group are items such as these:

Hand in Hand - Israeli Jewish-Arab Schools

Good News Wednesday: Peace Can Grow in the Middle East).

Of course most Viners would rather devote their entire time in discussion of this topic to attacking "the other side"-- probably 90%+ of the seeds related to I/P are "make wrongs" and "finger pointing". Positive energy-- and steps towards peace and understanding between Jews and Arabs generate little interest here on the Vine. . .(in fact the reason the person who started the group started it was an attempt to change that..of course it failed in that regard... :-(

Can anyone suggest a good online news source to keep up with news from Israel and the Middle East?

And for the middle-east-- at least one country-- this site is excellent for news about Iran (news aggregator-- things you might otherwise miss): Iran Press news

That page is mainly in English-- but click on top right where it says "English" for more news..

things you might otherwise miss

For example, I just discovered this video (Iran: Security forces attacking women) there-- had I not looked at that site I wouldn't have known about it.

Thank you; I'll bookmark that as well. I don't like it when I don't know what people are referencing on a thread so it will be very nice to have a place to look that up on my own! When you google things, you get 10,000,000 choices and a lot of them are biased.

When you google things, you get 10,000,000 choices and a lot of them are biased.

Most sources are biased-- the trick is to find the ones that are biased in a manner you like! :0

(Well, I was half-joking. But after a while a lot of the better sources-- on both sides of an issue-- seem to keep re-appearing- and then you eventually become more and more aware of which ones' have which kinds of agendas, etc)

I don't know. I think that they should allow and perform civil marriages. (Gee, look at that, I just criticised Israel, lol.)

No, I think that you are a reasonable person, I don't think it is odd that you would look at something objectively. Why not? You are objective and thoughtful on seeds not regarding Israel as well. I think you are correct that it would help Israel avoid unneeded criticism and bolster the argument of being a western style democracy if they did so.

The only reason I was thinking about it was because of a comment up seed that a person could become a citizen of Israel by marriage. So then I looked up marriage in Israel and lots of information came to light. I was aware of some of it but didn't trust my information enough to not have references in case I was asked for them.

But I am not at all shocked that you would say something objective about Israel--its not even really criticism, its just an idea.

The Rabbinate said that an agreement had been reached with the Justice Ministry regarding the 270,000 citizens living in Israel who are not Jewish and do not belong to any other religion (most of whom immigrated to Israel from the Commonwealth of Independent States). Some 150,000 of them are not married

According to the Chief Rabbinate, tens of thousands of citizens registered as Jews are not recognized as such by the rabbinical courts. The new law is aimed at finding a solution for them.http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3427218,00.html

And then there is always Vegas or Cyprus... ;)

(most of whom immigrated to Israel from the Commonwealth of Independent States).

That is Eastern Europe? Or the former Soviet States? They claim that they are Jewish don't they?

You are welcome. Credit given where credit is due. You have a brain and and opinion and are be good at being objective when you don't agree with people. That is pretty impressive here on NV. You must be smart too, because it isn't easy to be able to keep to your position and not "lose it" on those who vigorously disagree. I have not seen you stoop to crap either, which gives you a lot of credibility when you do speak.

I have also seen your posts on other subjects and they are always clear, concise and fair. So, while we disagree I don't feel attacked. Good moderating.

And for the record? I do not hate Jews despite what some on here may say about me. I don't hate any group of human beings because of their affiliations. I have passionate opinions about things but try not to be provoked or allow myself to become too cynical and closed off. It is my wish that things would get better in the middle east, and I have a lot of respect for many of the people on all sides there. I think it is sad that all are now living in such a tinderbox. I am sure it takes a toll on all the regular people just trying to live their lives in peace.

Soviet Russia: State marriages. Everybody is a citizen of the Soviet State. Citizens fell in love and married Citizens. A citizen might have a Jewish mother and father, and her man, her husband, has a Russian father and a Jewish mother, and this young husband has a half sister and a half brother from his dads first marriage. Our husband and wife know that they are Jewish, they believe themselves Jewish, they are, indeed Jewish. Our Jewish husband's brother and sister are full blooded Russians, nominally Russian Orthodox, if not actually attending church on any regular basis, they do enjoy the major Orthodox holidays.

They are living in Israel as Families, most are Jewish, some are Christians, all are Israelis.

Mork:
Interesting description. I hadn't heard that term before. I just always heard those people called "the Russians". That stuff started happening after I stopped studying in college. The world is much smaller than it used to be isn't it. We have all become strange bedfellows.

I am not saying that I won't piss any of you off, but it is important to me that you understand that I am not coming at this from a point of antisemitism.

I am united with everyone to stop anti-any-ism. I really have enjoyed being on the same side of things with Irene and Alkimija on other topics. We are not one dimensional.

And I am sure that not all the pro-Zionists agree even with eachother. As Kshark said there are many differences even within the Zionist community . No group is monolithic.

I see an element of race and ethnic prejudice in any religious state. no matter the intent. and I think that it is worse with American and western perceptions of Israel because we expect something different from a more modern state. Something more.

I think even many Israelis feel backed into a corner by the whole situation. I know as an American I am proud to be one, but I also have real doubts about many of our policies, but when pushed there are some things I just feel compelled to defend America warts and all--but I do wish that we could change some things to make out nation more fair and compassionate.

So, I guess what I am saying is that I think many of the Pro-Palestinian faction are also not defending the Palestinian position out of inherent antisemitism. I don't know-- some may be, but I don't think most are, any more than some of the Pro-Zionists may really harbor ill will towards Palestinians.

I don't believe most of the pro-Zionists on here hate Palestinians either and I can tell by some of the posts that there is a real sympathy , but not answers on what to do. Nobody really seems to know what to do now that it has come to this point.

Maybe if we talk we can figure that out. I am no goody two-shoes, but I don't have hate in my heart toward Israel or Jews or Muslims or Christians. I get angry and frustrated but more out of pain than anger. It makes me feel badly to see people suffer--I think that is true for most of us.

I think some of the fundamentalist policies of all religions are mainly nasty and elitist and exclusive by nature--despite evangelists evangelizing--I think they are really happy to have the gays and others to bash around as it gives them a power. Not the regular people but the ones in power to begin with--they get drunk on their own crap.

but they are a small minority of the planet. Most of us-- of all makes and models-- I think just want to live in peace. We want to be understood as good people. So I will understand if I piss you off and if things get heated , but please feel free to remind me to stick to the subject and to try and be as constructive as possible. It might not always work, and then if I get deleted or whatever--that is the way it goes. But I have been on some seeds (not this one) where everything I said was deleted and looking back I think like today? Maybe they were paranoid and thought that I was effing with them. I wasn't. I am a literal person and have problems sometimes with catching cynicism and irony. I actually do want to learn about things, but like most people I don't want to be put down or yelled at. I don't want to come from a place of being afraid to speak.

I am not jdoyle--really--I am not that smart. I think he is a smart guy and is trying to do what he thinks is right. Just like most of you I think he believes in what he is doing. I am not that smart nor am I that smooth. I have rough edges and ADHD. I am older and disabled and just want to try and get to a place where we can have conversations that are less defensive. I get freaked out and lose it--he doesn't .

I don't know if people on your side understand how it feels to be called a "Jew hater" or antisemite casually ? It feels bad. I can tell you that.

I can also say all it does is make you feel misunderstood and defensive. Not a good place for productive dialogue.

I don't know how it feels to be on the other side and be told that to the world Israel seems like an apartheid state, but I would like to have it explained to me from a non-defensive place where it isn't just coming our of fear and out of feeling attacked or under siege. Even if we disagree? At least we can understand the real human feelings that are driving this train.

These things seem to me to be the best way to get to a place were we can unite against antisemitism.

I am not promising to be pro Israeli policy as that would be disingenuous on my part. There are things about that nation of Israel that really bother me (and almost all the Arab countries too--they are not my roll model-I just expect less from a kingdom or a fundamentalist backwater) So that is my take on a united front against antisemitism.

I don't think that in the US that as it says in the artilce that antiIsraeli sentiment has to translate into antisemitism--nor do I think it has--I do think that Israel has lost ground on support--but I don't think it is just Obama. I think it is where things were heading anyway. I think that everyone agrees that Israel has a right to exist--but not on how that should play out. that needs to be figured out for everyone's sake.

I don't think young people even consider it much at all except maybe on a really neanderthal level where they hate everyone who isn't a Stormfront member. I think we are shlepping towards being post racial and post religious as the fundies start to be overexposed and fade away. (I know I am an optimist--but I am capable of depression as well)

Most educated young people are very intertwined here.Race and religion are not just fading from Judaism. Catholic churches are empty too. Churches are for sale everywhere except those mega things-they to me are a fad and will be gone too--the young people are all too mobile to stay caught in that forever. Just Look at NV-Calvin, Tyler, and all the rest of us. What a conglomeration of humanity. Sharing information. Seeing each other. hearing each other.

It is not just Judaism that is assimilating. Judaism is such a big part of the American psyche that it isn't assimilation into but more of a blending. I know that creeps people out--but it creeps everyone out when things change and move in other directions too fast. But I think it is inevitable and not inevitably bad that we will call come to understand eachother better.In the end it may preserve the best of all of our traditions. I don't know.